How much WIP is nessecary? Discussion
#11
After reviewing all that has thus far been written/posted in regard to this issue/matter...this is my brief followup and comments in regard to varied specific statements;

MellyMonkey...wrote, " How to cut your ceiling tile, or build your wall corner aren't really pertinent to fungi & flora. "......So if I understand this correctly...(WIP: HOW TO) statements are directly related to and guided by the specific (COMP TITLE)...This I can clearly understand and have no problems with...So with the title being flora & fungi...the (WIP: HOW TO) would not be required on how I made sculpted rocks or did a water stream or executed anything else that does not deal directly with flora & fungi!...Am I correct in this understanding?

MellyMonkey...wrote, " The last comp theme was to have an " opening "...it was very generic......As I wrote/posted, I am a new member and this is my 1st (COMP) participation. I read the posted rules/guidelines, asked fellow members for the proper process/procedures and went back to (COMP I) for reference/answers to my questions. I followed the posted rules/guidelines, clearly followed the advice given by fellow members and saw what was provided in (COMP I)...With this information, I started my current (WIP)...If the last theme was very generic, the advice I was given by fellow members wrong and the stated rules/guidelines lacked further in depth detail...I am happy that I brought this issue to light for discussion and or possible expansion/clarification...but I do feel that I have done nothing wrong or incorrect based upon all information I received prior to this issue coming to current light and discussion!

MellyMonkey...wrote, the important thing is not the spirit of (COMPs)...but " The spirit of TG as a whole. "......I am all for membership building and the building/making of an outstanding and excellent site. In the short period of time that I have been a member, I have tried to do my best (what little/if any) in the help of making of these desires come to pass and will continue to do so to the best of my abilities.

coxrltw...wrote, " Catdancer's comments added later. "......RE: (MOSS, SNAKE VINE, CLIMBING IVY, FELT MUSHROOMS)......Just for the record and clear understanding; these were not comments that I added later...but were specific answers to specific questions asked by MellyMonkey!......If these are the types of required (WIP) statements in regard to the (COMP THEME/TITLE) that the site would like to see...I have no problems with such data/information postings and will adjust my future postings accordingly.

Tob...wrote, (A portion of the Comps FAQ from TG.co.ukSmile...
1. It demonstrates to the Competition Organizer and other members that you are actually making the piece during the qualifying period......This is a completely false and erroneous statement and assumption. There is nothing to prevent anyone (me) from posting a (WIP) thread that I did on a piece that I built 6 months or 6 years ago (that might fit a given current/future...COMP THEME/TITLE)...and come the deadline...I post photos of the finished piece...So as a fact; this rule means nothing...IT IS BASED UPON THE HONESTY AND INTEGRITY OF THE INDIVIDUAL!
2. & 3....Are completely mute points...since the comments & suggestions by members and materials for the Site Administrator to use in the creation of articles for the archives...are still based upon a piece that is posted (done within the stated time frame or done (as stated) 6 months or 6 years ago)!

In closing; I just want to say that I am a very laid back easy going individual who has been around the model building world for many decades...I don't really give/offer tutorials due to the fact that I feel that such tutorials (in my opinion) impress upon the viewer(s) that this is the right way to do a given thing...it is not the right way or the wrong way...it is just my way. I present my pieces as photo visions for possible ideas and/or inspiration for a given viewer to create his/her own project......not as a diagram that he/she can try and copy following step-by-step instructions.
I have heard/read reference to the (Old TG site). I am really not interested in the old site; I became a member of this current site because I liked what I saw and wanted to be part of it. I am trying my best to be a friendly active member/participant and to fit into the overall mesh of things and do greatly appreciate the few members who have welcomed me!

Paul (Catdancer)
Reply
#12
(03-07-2015, 04:10 PM)catdancer Wrote: There is nothing to prevent anyone (me) from posting a (WIP) thread that I did on a piece that I built 6 months or 6 years ago (that might fit a given current/future...COMP THEME/TITLE)...and come the deadline...I post photos of the finished piece...So as a fact; this rule means nothing...IT IS BASED UPON THE HONESTY AND INTEGRITY OF THE INDIVIDUAL!

This is entirely true and many people realize this, and since you brought it up let me follow this to its logical conclusion.

This could be a source of suspicion in your WIP thread. You've read the comp rules, you've read what's been posted in this thread. But are you posting WIP photos? Or are you posting photos you took 6 months ago of a project you made a few years back? We're led to believe that these are all new photos. But you made a mistake; you've posted one of those photos before.
You posted the photo of the tomato vines and spices in your Black Orks thread in the WIP forum. Other Black Orks photos are clearly datestamped 2014. So it seems very clear that this SAME photo in your comp WIP thread WAS NOT taken during the time period of the competition, and yes that's cheating/grounds for DQ. As you have pointed out above, comp rules are based upon the honesty and integrity of the individual.

If you've got one obviously faked photo in your comp WIP thread, why would anyone believe the rest of the photos are legitimate? It may be that others here are suspecting you of EXACTLY what you felt needed to be pointed out to us, namely the quote at the beginning of this post.

This may also be why some feel you need to show some actual work being done along with descriptions how. Anyone posting fake pics could just as easily be using a project a neighbor is building and not be personally building anything at all.

-----------------------------

As for your dislike of tutorials: Here at TG we are collecting various techniques for various terrain building. We are NOT collecting "the right and only ways", we are collecting ALL ways. As such, YOUR techniques are as valid as anyone's. That's why we have so many articles on how to make trees; there are different ways, using different materials et cetera. Being as some modelers may not have the same materials or tools as others, having many different techniques available gives those modelers a better chance of building their desired project with what they might have available to them.

That is the raison d'etre of Terragenesis, spreading the knowledge to help people create. And knowledge can't be spread if there is no knowledge contributed. TG is nothing if not contribution.
Reply
#13
I think the amount of info required varies, for example back in the competition on the old site I entered my mini fungus stump in I actually posted 3 entries, one entry (inspired by the Chelsea flower show happening towards the end of the comp) was a case of "I made this out of clay and painted this like that and that like this and used a small amount of water effect for the water pot" not really a lot could be said, a little more detail was needed for the waystones, "I carved a stone shape out of clay, inscribed some elven runes, painted the rock colour, brightened the colour of the runs and stippled on some moss colour" but the entry with the stump required more detail " I created this cluster of fungi by rolling balls of clay and using the end of a paintbrush to stick them in place whilst opening a hole in the centre, they were painted this way and dots of red added. The tree stump was sculpted from clay with the bark detail carved with a sculpting tool. the fungi were made from flattening small pieces of clay and attaching to the stump using a tool. I then painted using various techniques including blending on the fungi. The berries were made using small lengths of floristry wire with small balls of green stuff stuck in place carefully with a sculpting tool so as not to create a huge hole. They were painted using photos as inspiration and coated in gloss to give them a realistic shine. The tendrils were created using shaped floristry wire covered in green stuff, I painted like this but wasn't happy, following some suggestions I did this and this which made a satisfactory result." Something obvious doesn't really need explaining, but more is needed for things that aren't obvious or are unique to your own style. I wouldn't copy someones technique exactly, I may use it as a rough guide or follow it once to get the basics, but I like to make up my own style because I'm unique and possibly slightly insane Big Grin
From Hell We Cometh, Into the Light, Hide, Take Cover, Throughout the Night
Yours, Eternally Damned

Vampyre Venom
Reply
[+] 1 user Likes vampyrevenom's post
#14
(03-07-2015, 05:57 PM)Tob Wrote:
(03-07-2015, 04:10 PM)catdancer Wrote: There is nothing to prevent anyone (me) from posting a (WIP) thread that I did on a piece that I built 6 months or 6 years ago (that might fit a given current/future...COMP THEME/TITLE)...and come the deadline...I post photos of the finished piece...So as a fact; this rule means nothing...IT IS BASED UPON THE HONESTY AND INTEGRITY OF THE INDIVIDUAL!

This is entirely true and many people realize this, and since you brought it up let me follow this to its logical conclusion.

This could be a source of suspicion in your WIP thread.   You've read the comp rules, you've read what's been posted in this thread.   But are you posting WIP photos?  Or are you posting photos you took 6 months ago of a project you made a few years back?  We're led to believe that these are all new photos.  But you made a mistake; you've posted one of those photos before.
You posted the photo of the tomato vines and spices in your Black Orks thread in the WIP forum.  Other Black Orks photos are clearly datestamped 2014.    So it seems very clear that this SAME photo in your comp WIP thread WAS NOT taken during the time period of the competition, and yes that's cheating/grounds for DQ.  As you have pointed out above, comp rules are based upon the honesty and integrity of the individual.  

If you've got one obviously faked photo in your comp WIP thread, why would anyone believe the rest of the photos are legitimate?  It may be that others here are suspecting you of EXACTLY what you felt needed to be pointed out to us, namely the quote at the beginning of this post.

This may also be why some feel you need to show some actual work being done along with descriptions how.  Anyone posting fake pics could just as easily be using a project a neighbor is building and not be personally building anything at all.

-----------------------------

As for your dislike of tutorials:  Here at TG we are collecting various techniques for various terrain building.  We are NOT collecting "the right and only ways", we are collecting ALL ways.  As such, YOUR techniques are as valid as anyone's.  That's why we have so many articles on how to make trees; there are different ways, using different materials et cetera.  Being as some modelers may not have the same materials or tools as others, having many different techniques available gives those modelers a better chance of building their desired project with what they might have available to them.  

That is the raison d'etre of Terragenesis, spreading the knowledge to help people create.  And knowledge can't be spread if there is no knowledge contributed.  TG is nothing if not contribution.

Tob;...I again thank you for your most astute observation and feedback!...You are absolutely correct about my posted photo on this current (COMP WIP) thread (BASIC MATERIALS I USE FOR GROUND COVER) being the same exact photo that I posted on (Black Orcs in the jungle)...Since the basic materials (shown/posted) in that photo are the same basic materials that I use in all my projects...last year...today...3 months from now...Am I really supposed to take a current photo (each and every time of these materials)? To me that sounds rather foolish and completely redundant when a single (file photo would suffice)...maybe my common sense thinking is wrong!

Just to set you completely straight for the record. You just stated that the orc photos are time stamped (2014)...the photo of my (BASIC MATERIALS I USE FOR GROUND COVER) is not time stamped in either posting...which does not prove or disprove anything!

You state that there is suspicion in regard to my current (WIP) thread!...May I ask; suspicion by whom...to me (it appears that all these castings of disparage against my integrity, my work and myself as a person...seem to originate from you). This is the 2nd time that I find your remarks offensive (please do not start to make a habit of this practice)...As I stated to you in a past posting...I don't know who you are and you don't know who I am...but I am starting to find your hints and veiled statements in regard to my integrity and honestly a bit out of line!

You state that since the photo you mentioned above was not taken in the proper given time frame (which it was); that I have violated the rules and am guilty of cheating (please be very careful about what you call people and in the making of such serious alleged allegations) and thus I need to be (DQ). If that is what you are after and an administrator agrees...I have no problem about withdrawing from this (COMP II: Project).

Paul (Catdancer)
Reply
#15
(03-07-2015, 07:22 PM)catdancer Wrote: Just to set you completely straight for the record. You just stated that the orc photos are time stamped (2014)...the photo of my (BASIC MATERIALS I USE FOR GROUND COVER) is not time stamped in either posting...which does not prove or disprove anything!

1. I stated that OTHER photos in that thread were datestamped. Read it again.

2. You seem to forget that the posts themselves are time and datestamped. You posted the photo in question on Feb 22 and the comp didn't start until Mar 2. Which does in fact prove that you took the photo BEFORE the comp started. Or it could prove that you own and operate a time machine, but I think we can go with Occam's Razor here.

No one has accused you of anything. But look at it from a completely objective angle: You described a method of cheating (posting previously taken photos) after you did the very actions you described. It just looks bad and might be why you were asked to provide more information regarding your project.

As for photos of materials, anything common like flock, reindeer moss, XPS foam, and other very common materials don't really require individual photos because they're common enough that everyone knows what they are, and they will be seen in the WIPs as progress is made. A typical bill of materials type list will suffice for this kind of stuff, because yes, it would be idiotically redundant to have to repost photos of the same stuff each comp. The materials to photograph for comp WIPs would be anything out of the ordinary or not normally used for terrain modeling, like doll heads, packaging blisters, and the ilk. This is because these items might not be recognizable after they are modified, painted, and incorporated into a finished terrain model, so there's a 'before and after' aspect here. And since comp entries are the things most likely to be archived, there is a desire to provide enough info so that anyone wanting to replicate the work can do so.
Reply
#16
(03-07-2015, 08:48 PM)Tob Wrote:
(03-07-2015, 07:22 PM)catdancer Wrote: Just to set you completely straight for the record. You just stated that the orc photos are time stamped (2014)...the photo of my (BASIC MATERIALS I USE FOR GROUND COVER) is not time stamped in either posting...which does not prove or disprove anything!

1.  I stated that OTHER photos in that thread were datestamped.  Read it again.

2.  You seem to forget that the posts themselves are time and datestamped.  You posted the photo in question on Feb 22 and the comp didn't start until Mar 2.   Which does in fact prove that you took the photo BEFORE the comp started.  Or it could prove that you own and operate a time machine, but I think we can go with Occam's Razor here.

No one has accused you of anything.  But look at it from a completely objective angle:  You described a method of cheating (posting previously taken photos) after you did the very actions you described.  It just looks bad and might be why you were asked to provide more information regarding your project.

As for photos of materials, anything common like flock, reindeer moss, XPS foam, and other very common materials don't really require individual photos because they're common enough that everyone knows what they are, and they will be seen in the WIPs as progress is made.   A typical bill of materials type list will suffice for this kind of stuff, because yes, it would be idiotically redundant to have to repost photos of the same stuff each comp.  The materials to photograph for comp WIPs would be anything out of the ordinary or not normally used for terrain modeling, like doll heads, packaging blisters, and the ilk.  This is because these items might not be recognizable after they are modified, painted, and incorporated into a finished terrain model, so there's a 'before and after' aspect here.    And since comp entries are the things most likely to be archived, there is a desire to provide enough info so that anyone wanting to replicate the work can do so.

Tob;

I owe you a most sincere and direct apology!...Which is what this is!...You were right and I was wrong (about the single photo in question). I went back and checked my records...I took that photo of my (BASIC BUILDING MATERIALS I USE)...the same day that I posted the (Black Orcs) on this site...I took that photo as an addition to the (WIP) photos that were taken in 2014...So it was my error/mistake, when I stated that I took the photo during this current (WIP)...It was a simple transposition of dates on my part...thus you are correct...I used a photo that was not taken during this (WIP) process/period. All the rest of the facts stated by me prior still remain the same.

Your statement saying..." No one has accused you of anything. "...Is in fact a complete absence of truth or accuracy on your part. If you will review your past postings...you directly accused me of cheating and that I should be (DQ)...I state this just to make it clear and have it on the record!

As far as I am concerned; this matter has been subjected to well beyond the needed/required/desired limits and I will not entertain any more on going communication in regard to this matter. I have stated my case/facts clearly and unless/until I am notified by an administrator that I am (DQ)...I will continue my participation and contribution to this site.

Most sincerely;

Paul (Catdancer)
Reply
[+] 1 user Likes catdancer's post
#17
(03-08-2015, 02:27 AM)catdancer Wrote: Your statement saying..." No one has accused you of anything. "...Is in fact a complete absence of truth or accuracy on your part. If you will review your past postings...you directly accused me of cheating and that I should be (DQ).

Did I?  Perhaps I should review my postings because I don't know what you mean.  If you refer to this line:

"So it seems very clear that this SAME photo in your comp WIP thread WAS NOT taken during the time period of the competition, and yes that's cheating/grounds for DQ."

How is that "directly accusing" you?  All I stated here was that it SEEMS that you used the same photo.  Which you eventually admitted to doing.   Because you did.   Then I stated that "yes that's cheating/grounds for DQ" because it is.  The rules clearly state that you can't use previous projects in comps.  I haven't lied, I haven't libeled you, and I haven't accused you.

However, if you're thinking of some other post or statement I made that DID directly accuse you, point it out to me.

Using previously taken photos or made projects IS considered cheating here and IS grounds for disqualification.  Being as it would seem that the double photo post was an innocent mistake, I doubt trollmeat will DQ your comp entry.
Reply
#18
"So it seems very clear that this SAME photo in your comp WIP thread WAS NOT taken during the time period of the competition, and yes that's cheating/grounds for DQ."

While it may have not been the intention, to me that does sound like an accusation.

I recognised the Resource Photo from other projects, and thought it was very good that it was included so that anyone who has not read all of the posts on the forum would know what bits and pieces are used. The description even states that it is standard ground cover materials.
Reply
#19
A couple of things in no particular order:

First, I have no problem with someone re-using a photo of basic materials. A lot of times the materials that go into a project are hard to recognize once the project is completely assembled/painted/textured/whatever, so having a photo of raw peppercorns or a pile of oregano or whatever can be helpful and informative. That said, Tob's point is a good one, and maybe the rules for WIP threads an be amended to include something along the lines of "Re-using or re-posting older photos of basic working materials is allowed so long as mention of the re-use is made when the photo is re-posted."  That way, a simple, "For this project, I am using the same ground-cover materials as in my Black Orc Jungle project, reposted here for your convenience."  Boom, problem solved.

Second, I really have a problem with this statement: "I don't really give/offer tutorials due to the fact that I feel that such tutorials (in my opinion) impress upon the viewer(s) that this is the right way to do a given thing...it is not the right way or the wrong way...it is just my way." This is exactly counter to the spirit behind the TerraGenesis community. We don't ask people to post stuff to show off how awesome they are, we ask people to post stuff to help us all make better terrain. TerraGenesis is first and foremost a tutorial site, where people swap ideas and techniques. The competitions are a fun way get lots of different techniques and ideas for doing a particular thing (e.g. creating fantasy fungus) in one place for future users. The WIP threads and resulting Q&A are critical to this process.

If what I am saying is not making sense, go back to the old TerraGenesis site and take a look. I learned a ridiculous amount of stuff from that site in terms of technique and material use. Be it asdel's hammered foam techniques or havre's amazing brickwork or ableman's use of vinegar and clear caulk to make waves or bugbait's ridiculous precision when cutting foam or card or using leather-punched card to make rivets. Even more basic stuff like using a ball of tinfoil to give stonelike texture to foam is a technique that's super-useful for people new to the hobby, and the old site was chock-full of that kind of fantastic wisdom. And though we're on a new site, I feel like the central goal of the community is unchanged.

So if all you want to do is show finished projects and bask in whatever accolades the Internet gestalt deigns to bestow, TG is maybe not the right place. But if you want to teach and learn and grow and improve, by all means stick around. Just don't be surprised when people say, "Cool. But how'd you do it?" because that's the entire point of this community.
Reply
[+] 4 users Like Munin's post
#20
(03-09-2015, 11:14 AM)Munin Wrote: A couple of things in no particular order:

First, I have no problem with someone re-using a photo of basic materials. A lot of times the materials that go into a project are hard to recognize once the project is completely assembled/painted/textured/whatever, so having a photo of raw peppercorns or a pile of oregano or whatever can be helpful and informative. That said, Tob's point is a good one, and maybe the rules for WIP threads an be amended to include something along the lines of "Re-using or re-posting older photos of basic working materials is allowed so long as mention of the re-use is made when the photo is re-posted."  That way, a simple, "For this project, I am using the same ground-cover materials as in my Black Orc Jungle project, reposted here for your convenience."  Boom, problem solved.

Second, I really have a problem with this statement: "I don't really give/offer tutorials due to the fact that I feel that such tutorials (in my opinion) impress upon the viewer(s) that this is the right way to do a given thing...it is not the right way or the wrong way...it is just my way." This is exactly counter to the spirit behind the TerraGenesis community. We don't ask people to post stuff to show off how awesome they are, we ask people to post stuff to help us all make better terrain. TerraGenesis is first and foremost a tutorial site, where people swap ideas and techniques. The competitions are a fun way get lots of different techniques and ideas for doing a particular thing (e.g. creating fantasy fungus) in one place for future users. The WIP threads and resulting Q&A are critical to this process.

If what I am saying is not making sense, go back to the old TerraGenesis site and take a look. I learned a ridiculous amount of stuff from that site in terms of technique and material use. Be it asdel's hammered foam techniques or havre's amazing brickwork or ableman's use of vinegar and clear caulk to make waves or bugbait's ridiculous precision when cutting foam or card or using leather-punched card to make rivets. Even more basic stuff like using a ball of tinfoil to give stonelike texture to foam is a technique that's super-useful for people new to the hobby, and the old site was chock-full of that kind of fantastic wisdom. And though we're on a new site, I feel like the central goal of the community is unchanged.

So if all you want to do is show finished projects and bask in whatever accolades the Internet gestalt deigns to bestow, TG is maybe not the right place. But if you want to teach and learn and grow and improve, by all means stick around. Just don't be surprised when people say, "Cool. But how'd you do it?" because that's the entire point of this community.
Thank you Munin;...your feedback comments are well taken, greatly appreciated and understood!

Point #1...I think that your suggestion in regard to someone re-using a basic item photo with a notation of the re-use of the photo is a very good one  (and as you suggested) may need to be addressed in the rules/guidelines...(just my opinion...in agreement with your suggestion).

Point #2...My statement in regard to/about giving tutorials is just my personal (feeling & opinion). I did not suggest/state in anyway/form or fashion that it applied to this site and/or giving tutorial type advice/information on this site...I have always been considered/labeled a recluse who shunned publicity! During my close to 35+ years as a photographer...I allowed only 3 media interviews, even those with great reluctance...In my mind, I tend to equate tutorials as being a form/sort of an interview. Being new to this site, I am still in the process of learning the varied subtle requirements, processes and ways of this site (Example being: I just learned from your current posting that (TG is first and foremost a tutorial site)...I was not aware of this fact...but I had already stated in a current past posting that I will be most happy to adjust any/all future postings with that in mind and my future notes in regard to given postings would contain more specific data and information.

Point #3...I have stated a number of times that I am not familiar with the (Old TG site)...I was not a member, I have no idea as to the rules, regulations and/or guidelines associated with that site. I have seen a number of postings on this site making reference to what was/what used to be done/how things were done on the (Old TG site).

So here I ask clearly (for my own clear understanding)...Is this new site just a revamp of that old site using the same rules, regulations and guidelines, structure and processes of that site (just with a new face)?......or.......Is this new site one that stands on its' own with some old members from the old site...but gaining new membership with/of a lot of new people who are not familiar with and/or ever had contact with the old site?

I call myself (a computer idiot)...due to that fact that I know very little about technical computer procedures and processes. You state that the old site had great tutorials on a multitude of varied modeling processes...Is there anyway that you can do a library forum/thread on this new site and transport those varied tutorials into this library site so all current new members (like myself) and future new members can check out those tutorials?...I think that such a library would have great drawing appeal for new membership!...As I said, I am a computer idiot and don't know if what I am suggesting here is possible or not!

Last of all (I addressed this topic in a past postings)...I joined this site because one of your members suggested that I check it out, that I might like it and that I might be able to contribute to it (so to speak, while it was on the ground floor to establish itself)...I checked it out and thought he might be right...so I joined!
I have also clearly stated that I am not on any ego trip looking for (praise. accolades, compliments, tributes and/or glory)...by the posting of my finished works!
Some 40 years ago; I was an active master competition model builder and competitor in/for regional, national and international conventions, shows and contests and received my avalanche of trophies, plaques, statues and ribbons on those major stages.

Today, I consider myself (not really a model builder any longer) but as a miniature world artist! Thus I post my finished pieces from many years past as possible visions of/for inspiration to new modelers of the miniature world. So you say that (TG) may not be the right place for me to post these finished pieces...I ask, why?
Does a piece have to be modern/current to invoke inspiration and/or ideas?...or...Are you saying that I shouldn't post old pieces from 30 to 40 years ago without a tutorial on how it was built!...Pieces from the past are exactly that...pieces from the past...and I have to admit that I do not have building notes going back some 30 to 40 years (even if I did...I would not post them with the photos of old pieces that are being posted for visions of/for inspiration).

I stated prior, that I would not entertain any more comments/communication in regard to this thread...but I think that your posting deserved the courtesy of a reply. I hope that what I have stated herein makes sense!

Most sincerely;

Paul (Catdancer)
Reply
[+] 1 user Likes catdancer's post


Forum Jump: